13 September, 2000

CONTENTS:

Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 19:56:19 +01:0

MSN subscribers: I need your feedback

Museum Security Network subscribers' feedback:

special: Request for feedback.

MSN subscribers send feedback......

• From: "Sofia y/o Ximena Paredes Maury" paredes@guate.net
  Dear Ton:
  I am an archaeologist in Guatemala and have participated before in some of those "challenging discussions" on looted antiquities through your list. However, I am also a museum person dealing with cultural and environmental education in a country where museums are far way back than the ones seen in the US and Europe, AND with serious looting and destruction problems because of lack of information to the public.
  Archaeology, art, nature and education should be interrelated, HOWEVER, it might be useful to have separate listings to address both topics separately. Many of us, I bet, will be interested in checking both, and it will be easier for the moderator and readers to participate accordingly without bothering people interested only on one topic.
  Until now, I have found very useful to learn and read opinions on fires, floodings, light bulbs and water sprinklers in museum environments, as well as reading about the protection of cultural remains in other parts of the world. Congratulations from this small Central American country.
  Sofia Paredes-Maury

• From: Bianka Per ini -Kavur bianka.percinic-kavur@uprava-bastine.tel.hr
  Dear Mr. Cremers
  Je suis le membre da la MNS il y a quelques mois, et je trouve que le travaille que Vous faites est exellent. J espere que Vous allez continuer avec la meme energie et da la meme maniere, malgres les opinions parfois diferrentes. Avec mes respectueuses
  salutation Bianka

• From: User Name username@risd.edu
  I think you do an outstanding job and appreciate it. The more sides of an issue one sees the better they can make an educated decisions. Thanks for all your hard work.
  Susan

• From: "Rosa Ho" rosah@interchange.ubc.ca
  I applaud MSN for the information you have been posting on looted antiquities, provenance matters, auction houses, antiquities dealers and museum collections. As far as I can tell you provide the most up-to-date sources of information and debate. As a museum worker who confronts these issues on the frontline, I have found your list-serve to meet my needs particularly well of late than when I first signed up 3 years go.
  The fact that looted antiquity sources have become such a hot topic is because there has been a wave of change about acquisitions that museums are facing whether they are collecting European paintings or antiquities from any part of the world. In the past, the de reguer thing to do was "don't ask, don't tell". Or if some thing was known to be imported illegally, then the salvage paradigm prevailed. These matters were not thought to be polite issues particularly if they have to be raised with the donors.
  In the past decade, with academics (mostly archaeologists) asking on one side, and source countries or former collectors on the other side, the questionable origins of some of the past and recent museums collections are being raised.
  I think it is important and healthy for these matters to be raised continuously as all fields and practices are having to redefined itself for the future. The old way of collecting is one of the last bastions in need of self-introspection and reform. I hope you will not be pressured to only cater to those who are sensitive to the topics you have identified in your request for feedback. In fact your site is a good place for a diverse range of professionals to be informed about so many fields in which museums have much vested interest.
  Rosa Ho
  UBC Museum of Anthropology, Vancouver, B.C., Canada

• From: MBotwinick@aol.com
  Ton,
  I have felt for a long time that while the subject has been very important, the tone has sometimes been offensive. I know that there are strong feelings, but some of the postings have come close to ranting. Many have had lots of accusations with little in the way of information let alone fact. Some have become boring repetitions of the same allegations, over and over with no new information.
  
  Let me give you a more specific sense:
  I find the Michael Van Rijn - Sotheby's Soap Opera has become tiresome. After the various points have been aired, this is not the place to offer Van Rijn an opportunity to do a point by point rebuttal of a Sotheby's posting. The issue has been raised, links to other sources have been put up. People are alerted to the issue and can be expected to form their own judgments. MSN is, I think a place for information, not a chat room for arguments. And in a mild post script..I think your rebuke of Sotheby's for their slow or non response was editorializing unworthy of you. We all drew our own appropriate conclusions from the timing and manner of their response. Your point made you sound defensive where you did not need to. The thing can stand for itself.
  The Shelby White thread has also become tedious. Nothing new has been added since the earliest postings. I thought LRoussin's posting was unnacceptable. No news their, just a lot of jejeune fulmination.
  The postings are now voluminous. I happily would encourage more editorial control on the part of the moderater. Perhaps someday we can have bulletin boards to handle these emotional, polemical threads...allowing you to still support the idea of open discussion, but allowing for a little discrimination for what comes to us in e mail every day.
  In the end, please read this letter as a salute to your leadership and effort and to the fundamental importance of the information that is shared. You have earned the right to steer the ship as close to its original intent as you have the wisdom to see, and my vote for you to do so.
  ********************************************************
  Michael Botwinick
  President
  Staten Island Institute of Arts & Sciences
  75 Stuyvesant Place
  Staten Island, NY 10301
  718.727.1135
  718.273.5683 fax
  ***********************************************************

• From: Dorothy Shinn dtgshinn@neo.rr.com
  Ton. As an art writer, I greatly appreciate getting both the depth and the breadth this list provides. I can even put up with some of your more frequent, opinionated and verbose respondents just to get the insights of your listserv. Keep up the good work.
  Regards, Dorothy Shinn

• From: Clifford Scheiner cjscheiner@pol.net
  Dear Ton,
  I have been a bit concerned about the posted serious accusations made against Sotheby's et. al. but I figured that you had good legal council on this.
  Rather than having MSN become a mirror site for individuals' allegations and accusations, I would prefer to see a short notice and summary of the topic, with information how to get to the entire presentation. The republication of material appearing in legitimate newspapers and magazines is a different matter, as is the posting of short editorial comments by knowledgeable MSN members about controversial issues.
  That's what I think.
  C.J. Scheiner

• From: "Gerson, Sareen" Sareen.Gerson@osha-no.osha.gov
  So long as the "challenging message" threads and the "new subjects" do not crowd out the technical information and educational materials about museum security technology, products, procedures, strategies, etc., which are the mainstream content, then I think that all benefit from the tangential knowledges gained from the articles about looted antiquities, disputed provenance, the legal complexities and the rest of it. Recent stories about the role of dealers and so on are not that far removed from the actual facility security information, when you think about it. Some reported incidents may seem far afield, but knowing "what's out there" is also important.
  You are doing a fine job. Keep it up.
  Sareen Gerson
  Washington, DC

• From: John Scafidi TAL 850/488-5090 John.Scafidi@dep.state.fl.us
  I find MSN a solid, informative resource. However, I consign myself to lurker status. Among my many reasons for lurking is an apparently increasingly strident, apparently ad hominem tone of communications about collectors, foxes guarding the chicken coop, etc. We work in a field whose founders - or the generation prior to the founders - displayed the ethical sensibilities of ill- tempered weasels. We, the successors, are supposed to find ethical ways of keeping institutional body and soul together and, by the way, striving not to be negligent. Each of us has expectations of our fellows and of the gatekeepers (not hardworking listserv moderators) appointed by boards or by governors. And we are often taken aback, not to say disappointed, by almost everyone. Especially those everyones who could have appointed different or at least less well known individuals to public bodies. I may be disappointed, but I have too much to do to be enraged. I am charged with operating a program, and I am interested in what helps run it, not what aggravates my colleagues ad nauseum.
  I do not wish to be understood as counseling excessive caution or prescribing areas of concentration; however, my reason for subscribing is to expose myself to trends in my field. I could do with fewer follow-ups and pejoratives and more discussion of security, unfortunate occurences (thefts?), and progress in tracking down not just the looted art but those who abet Nazi, apparatchik, Rwandan, and other looters.
  Keep up the good work.
  John Scafidi
  Florida State Parks
  Tallahassee, Florida

• From: Corcm@aol.com
  This seems to be the Michael van Rijn showcase list serve.
  Very little of the latest subjects really relate to any real museum security day-to-day problems and solutions that I can relate. I used to look forward to reading this list serve & have pondered looking elsewhere for museum info & chat. There are more security people that deal with real everyday security probles involving the visitors & the public & procedures, than deal with issues of provenance, archaeological theft & Sotheby's positions. Am I alone in this perception?

• from: michel van Rijn info@michelvanrijn.com
  Please share this with your subscribers
  Dear Ton,
  Apparently, it seems that a lot of people are fearing the truth to come out. Many museums and Galleries are filled with un provenanced objects. Auction houses have frequently trouble. You touched very couragously on a very sensible subject and a very delicate side of the Antiquities market. It's still possible for a museum like the Menil Foundation to acquire stolen mosaics from Zeugma and claim good faith. One thought that this institution should have learned to practise due diligence after the scandal they were involved in with Cyprus. And the examples I can give you are endless. It's sad that you received negative mail by some of your subscribers. I feel that anybody operating in this field should applaud your efforts to create some clarity in this minefield. Apparently I feel wrong. Thank you for really trying to mean something for countries like, China, Iran, Irak, Turkey, Italy and so many more. I am sure for the poor deprived people in these countries you are a hero. The art market is a well oiled machine, though one serious hurdle, and it seems to stagger. I know what it is to be criticised, know even better the hypocrite players who come to you with words, Dear Ton, don't make enemies with the powerful Auction houses and the powerful dealers, you can't afford it. These people would advise you if it's in their interest to stay friends with Sadam Hussein to. No, you deserve all admiration. You placed the issue forwards, didn't take side's, it was pure for the benefit of the Art World. It makes me sad to hear you are criticised for that.
  Yes, it's hard for some people to accept that information is coming from me. Wasn't I involved in a world they like to prtetend doesn't exist? Yes, I was, until twelve years ago. As a big player even. Till my conscious didn't permit me any longer. But that means specially that I know what I am talking about. To be able to continue my live, I have fought the last twelve years many battle's against the so called well established Art World. Went under cover in Argentina, where some American agents had lost their lives, to recover succesfully Holocaust Art. Exposed stolen nok art at the most prestigious fair in the world. Am I so unique? No, of course not. Only I don't accept to play the money game of the unscrupulous dealers. Had more success with different police forces in repatriation of stolen works of art than Ivar in the past. (Cyprus 40 million UK pounds) Should I be modest? Dance to the tune of people they don't like to hear this music? No, my fight will continue and I hope occasionally it will be reported by MSN. For now I am concentrating on the stolen Western Cave Treasure. Everybody in our field no where the bulk of this treasure is. Still nothing is done. My hart bleeds thinking that I had a serious possibility to use one or more pieces of this treasure as a bargaining chip for one of the Jewish prisoners in Iran. The museum involved and owner of the pieces were hiding behind statue of limitations to hang on to their works. What time we live in. 40/45? The Art World surely seems to do. No, I will never stop the fight,
  michel van rijn

• From: Rascher Andrea BAK Andrea.Rascher@bak.admin.ch
  Dear Tom
  Thanks for the question.
  We think the topic about the problem of looted antiquities, provenance matters, and the role of antiquities dealers and auction houses is a central issue for a museum security network. Especially in the context of the evolution of international public and private law (especially in the UNESCO, Unidroit and EU) the dramatic growth of problems in this area has become evident. That's why most states work more and more together in the field of combatting illicit traffic. It is therefore of upmost importance that also museum experts establish a network for collaboration - i think your web page is one important element in this discussion and collaboration. If you have further questions, do not hesitate to contact us.
  Dr. iur. Andrea F. G. Raschèr
  Bundesamt für Kultur - Office Fédéral de la Culture - Ufficio Federale della Cultura - Federal Office of Culture
  Leiter Dienst Kulturgütertransfer und Anlaufstelle Raubkunst Chef du Service Transfert des biens culturels et du Bureau de l'art spolié
  Capo del Servizio Trasferimento di beni culturali e dell'Ente Opere d'arte frutto di spoliazioni
  Head of Service on Transfer of Cultural Objects and Contact Bureau on Looted Art
  Hallwylstrasse 15 CH 3003 Bern
  Tel. +41 31 322 86 08 Fax +41 31 322 92 73
  mailto://andrea.rascher@bak.admin.ch
  http://www.kultur-schweiz.admin.ch/arkgt

• From: "Stacie L. Brandmire" slb@eckhart.com
  I value the opportunity to stay current and read different viewpoints on the subjects covered by the MSN. However, if the MSN becomes an unmoderated chat room, I will find it of little value to read.
  Thank you for the opportunity to comment.
  Thaddeus J. Stauber
  Eckhart, McSwain, Silliman & Sears
  21 S. Clark Street, Suite 3160
  Chicago, Illinois 60603
  312/236-0646 - Office Phone
  312/236-0105 - Fax
  tjs@eckhart.com

• From: "W. E. Sisson" wsisson@sisson.com
  Hi, Ton....I think the service that the mailist provides is important and fabulously useful ...some of the subject are, to say the least, controvertial ...I wouldn't want to have you (or the list) be sued by a litigious reader ...but I want to know as much as I can about the art and antiquities world... keep doing what you are doing! In American baseball it's like saying to the pitcher "Don't give him anything to hit .... but strike him out!!!
  Thanks for eveything,
  Wally Sisson
  (Milton) Boston. Massachusetts, USA

• From: Klaus Graf graf@uni-koblenz.de
  Organization: Universitaet Freiburg
  Dear Ton,
  I appreciated much your important work on this topic. It is time to brighten the dark corners of the antiquities market without taboos. Please continue!
  Best wishes!
  Dr. Klaus Graf
  http://www.uni-koblenz.de/~graf/museumr.htm

• From: PIERRE.CIRIC@us.sanofi.com
  "WorldSecure Server ny.sanofi.com" made the following annotations on 09/13/00 15:47:41
  It is an important issue which the art world is increasingly faced with and has to deal with. Therefore, it cannot be ignored.
  Thank you for the request.

• From: "Brand, Ross" RBrand@royalbcmuseum.bc.ca
  Ton
  The MSN is one of the most informative and thought provoking mail lists I've come across. I very much admire the job you are doing as moderator and can appreciate how difficult, and time consuming, it must be. Everyone with a valid opinion feels that they have a right to express their views and perhaps they do but what is valid? What seems to be a major concern in one perspective is not in another.
  Please keep up the good work. I read it daily and copy and forward pertinent parts to Curators and Security.

• From: "Michael Sullivan" msullivn@slam.org
  Organization: The St. Louis Art Museum
  Dear Sir,
  I appreciate very much the amount of time and effort you spend in making the MSN the focus that it is. Disclaimers aside, it must be very difficult to be the editor without editorializing. Given the world's cultures it seems impossible to understand and explain the sometimes conflicting ethics and standards. The passage, "...the voice of one crying in the wilderness." comes to mind. Sometimes it must feel like "...suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune". I promote the MSN to my friends and associates when I can. I wish you well, God bless you and guide you in your work.
  Michael C. Sullivan, MA, CPP

• From: Elisabeth Thoburn ezt@orchard.wccnet.org
  Tom, continue with the (new) subjects. I think they are a welcome addition to the breadth and variety of topics this forum offers.
  Elisabeth Thoburn

• From: "Tim Bonow" tbonow@huntington.org
  Whether you continue with these provenance, looting and auction house discussions or not, you're doing a great job. Like many other subscribers, I'm sure, I filter out what isn't useful to me. Having said that, the content of the MSN that I find most valuable pertains to things more directly related to day to day museum security issues. Provenance, repatriation, etc., are more collections management related. These problems seem to be more within the domain of registrars, curators and museum directors.
  Sincerely,
  Tim Bonow

• From: "Fran Gardner" frangardner@news.oregonian.com
  Ton:
  As the Internet becomes more familiar and accessible, people have easy access to all sorts of information. So if MSN was to return to its original purpose, there would still be places where readers could find out about art looted by the Nazis, looted antiquities, provenence questions or the alleged perfidy of auction houses. There are links to such at the home page, and you could, if you wish, add them to the end of the MSN bulletins.
  So my vote would be to return to current theft, vandalism and security issues.
  Oh, and I guess I totally missed the point of the David Hockney post and what connection it might have to museum security. Like many of the posts, it seems to have come from a newspaper, but the name of the publication got dropped.
  Love this list, it's one of very few I subscribe to,
  Fran Gardner

• From: Tanja Hutter Tanja.Hutter@ArtStar.com
  my opinion, for what it's worth, is that it is of value to include the discussion of the role of dealers and houses, but not to the point that it dominates over other relevant material

• From: "Phyllis Oppenheim" POppenheim@csi.edu
  Ton,
  I enjoy some reading the comments that come in. But I feel at times that they are way too lengthy. However, I have not idea what can be done about that. But I do support the idea of getting them.
  Phyllis

• From: Lyle Kuhnley kuhnley@peak.org
  Tom,
  I appreciate what you are doing and have passed your effort on for others who have since joined the list. Quite interesting reading.
  Shirley
  kuhnley@peak.org

• From: "Hugh O'Mara" hugho@earthlink.net
  Hello Ton:
  Thanks for your message. I will presume that much of the controversy centers on Michel van Rijn. I write as an artist who has worked for the past decade in the legal profession. I also once worked as a guard at the Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum. I understand that this topic is controversial. I don't want to see the end of Sotheby's, Christie's or E-Bay. However, there are problems with all of these auction houses as well as galleries and museums. These all need to be scrutinzed and analyzed and discussed. Your forum has dealt with this in what I consider to be an appropriate and responsible manner. Mr. van Rijn has a way of writing that could cause one to doubt him. I had occassion recently to check a few details where I could and I believe him to have been correct. You have likewise made inquiries and commented on same. All of those seemed proper to me. It would distress me to think that the possibility of adverse pressure could jeopardize the existence of MSN.
  You continually provide an important resource that I would greatly miss and one that I feel has great importance.
  Sincerely,
  Hugh O'Mara

• From: Laurie Mallet gdomains@yahoo.com
  good idea to run this by the members i believe its a "dangerous" topic and extreme caution should be used in getting involved as it screams of potential legal issues.
  best of luck, i'm sure you'll handle with dignity Laurie Mallet

• From: Tom Dixon tom.dixon@ngv.vic.gov.au
  Dear Ton
  I don't have a lot to say about the issues you raise regarding looted items and so forth. I find the list very useful in my work in that I become more aware of the complexities of security and related issues and often solutions are forthcoming that are very important. Certainly the issue of holocaust art which has been so well covered has been a major issue for all public galleries and I have forwarded a number of items from the list to our Senior Research Curator who is responsible for dealing with this I think it is sometimes hard to tell what will become important in the long term. Michel van Rijn's frequent contributions, for example, seem at times absolutely off the wall. I read his book Hot Art, Cold Cash many years ago and found it more fun and cheeky than professionally useful- I really wonder what his agenda is. Yet, it could be that this will turn out to be important information one day.
  I find the frequent statements about Chinese art which seem so reminiscent of Cultural Revolution denouncements also rather curious- yet this is such an important issue and it is obvious that that country has been looted over and over again of its very rich culture. The information has an effect on how I look at this art being sold these days- yet there is a difference between information and "pronouncements". But it is a thin line and I don't know how you can make the distinction.
  Ultimately, a moderated list has to have someone making the decision about what gets left off- and no one will get it right every time. The main issue is to be careful enough not to get sued and fearless enough not to be paralized.
  Hope all is well and you will keep up the wonderful work you do on this list.
  Tom Dixon
  Chief Conservator
  National Gallery of Victoria
  Melbourne Australia

• From: vickie "vick" reeves vickie.reeves@gte.net
  Hi,
• I first signed up for this service two years ago and I have always been pleased with the content. You provide a wide range of topics for anybody who is in the museum and library field. I see no problems with anything that is posted. This service has provided me with information and links that I have used for my course work and will continue to use through out my career. A big thank you for the tremendous job that you have done!
  Regards, Vickie Lynn Reeves Indiana University SLIS MLS Program

• From: "peter gailitis" pgailitis@hotmail.com
  A Criticism/Potential Security Leak. I am concerned that the site can be utilized by thieves to actually LEARN more about entry, theft, alarms, what a given museum uses has been often mentioned in the communications from security and administration personnel. The political issues(Shelby White fiasco) are of course a different and appropriate focus as well.
  Peter Gailitis

• From: Appraiserl@aol.com
  Dear Ton -
  From my own experience a business or a project often expands in directions where you would never have thought it would have gone.
  I have always felt that the best thing about the MSN is that it informs me of what is going on and issues that are a concern to others in and around the world of art. It also provides a platform for colleagues and others to state their opinions or positions.
  I have no problem with the list dipping into the looted art and antiques area. It is my feeling that just maybe the industry that we are all involved in has to ethically grow up. This applies to auction houses, museums, dealers and others who often engage in only a half-hearted provenance search on items they are buying, selling or receiving through donations.
  The main reason that prompted me to become a subscriber was that as an appraiser of art I have the ethical requirement of due diligence and I actively encourage my students to join the list. Along the way I have learned much more about cultural property and museum security issues. I have been informed. And, quite frankly, I like being informed about looted art and antiques.
  Pamela Scoville

• From: "Uwe Holz" Kreismuseum-Bitterfeld@gmx.de
  Organization: Kreismuseum Bitterfeld
  Dear Tom Cremers,
  I think You should go on reporting from looted antiquities and the role of antiquities dealers and auction houses. The market for antiquties becomes bigger an bigger and I think that more transparence is neccessary. This list supports buyer and seller, if they reall yare interested to avoid buying or selling things of doubtful provenance.
  Your call for my feedback is also a good opportunity to say a warm thank you for the job You do with this mailing list.
  Uwe Holz
  Curator